Florida's Rich Stormwater Legacy: Interview with the State's Stormwater Godfather, Eric Livingston, Florida Department of Environmental Resources
Although
Eric Livingston will be out of the country during StormCon, Florida’s stormwater
expertise will be represented by 18 presenters. See www.StormCon.com
for the full conference program.
What
is your background and how long have you been at the helm of the state’s
stormwater program?
I’m
a biologist and was trained in pollution control biology, especially in
estuaries. My master’s degree is in coral reef ecology. I was in Melbourne,
Florida, when I was in junior high school during the early ’60s space boom and
watched the Indian River Lagoon—which was my playground—water quality, habitat,
and fishing go to hell. That triggered something in me—and of course this was
back in the ’60s JFK era—“what can you do for your country?”—and from that
moment on, I knew I was going to dedicate my life to something related to water
quality and water resources.
I
started in DER in August of ’77, and in January of ’78 the federal Clean Water
Act Section 208 program—the nation’s first nonpoint-source management
program—began, so I got in right at the ground floor. Urbanization was the big
thing in Florida and we were also fortunate that the University of Central
Florida had already established a specialty in urban stormwater through Dr.
Marty Wanielista and other folks there, so we had data that showed that the
stuff we all played in as kids had quite a heavy pollutant
load.
The
state and our department had very enlightened leadership at that time. You could
see a growth boom was coming to Florida. So we started thinking about how to
deal with stormwater, not from a drainage perspective, but let’s get out ahead
of this and require stormwater treatment. This was revolutionary in ’78 and
’79.
Our
first rule went into place in ’79. It was a temporary rule until all of the BMP
data came in. For the next two years, we went through the official rulemaking
process to get our statewide stormwater rule in place. That was a pretty big
venture—29 official rule drafts, 100 meetings and public workshops—and, as you
can imagine, a lot of opposition. Fortunately, our leadership recognized that if
we didn’t do this now—like the auto commercial—“you can pay me now or you can
pay me later.” The rule went into effect in 1982. Since then, all new
development has had to treat stormwater to a specific level of pollutant
removal.
In
1984, I become administrator of the Stormwater/Nonpoint Management section. We
were dealing with NPS pollution from agriculture, forestry, construction, and
septic tanks, but my passion was urban stormwater. I just passed my 30th year
anniversary at DEP. Technically, I’m not in charge of stormwater anymore, I’m in
charge of TMDLs [total maximum daily loads], but I’m still DEP’s stormwater
technical expert.
Where
are you at with your TMDL program?
Since
2000, when our TMDL program really got going and we started getting some
dedicated funding that could be used for urban stormwater research, we’re back
in the mode of improving our stormwater knowledge and improving our
technology.
We,
like a lot of states, are doing a rotating basin approach. We divided our 52
basins into five groups and rotate over five-year cycles. We’re into our second
five-year cycle. We’re very unique in Florida because in 1999 the Florida
Watershed Restoration Act was passed, giving us strong legal authority and
funding. We’ve probably done more nutrient TMDLs than any state in the country
because nutrients are the really big issue in Florida. Our TMDLs are not going
on the shelf, they get implemented. We are now developing TMDL implementation
plans [basin management action plans] that are legally adopted, have the force
of law, and we actually have the authority to enforce against entities that
don’t have permits if they don’t clean up their pollution
sources.
We
are pretty unique in that we have an extremely strong institutional foundation,
very, very good science, funding—it’s not enough, but it’s more than most states
have—and we have the citizen awareness and support, which are key ingredients to
any successful program.
What
drives this level of interest?
Water
is truly special in the state of Florida; it is Florida’s lifeblood. It drives
our economy, our tourism, and our quality of life. Back in the ’70s we had some
really amazing legislators who understood [the need for] trying to prevent
problems before they happened, rather than going back and doing restoration. We
were really fortunate that our leaders in this state recognized the importance
of clean water and having a good supply of water.
There’s
a long history in the state in terms of water resource management. Flood control
drives everything, even if it’s stormwater treatment—and of course, Florida is
the champion of ditching and draining. But because of that history—especially
because of what was done in South Florida and the horror stories of what
happened to the Everglades and Florida Bay—there’s an awareness of overall
stormwater management, that it’s not just drainage, and we’re into overall
watershed management now. We are fortunate here that we have one of the world’s
most productive and purest aquifers that provide our potable water supply.
To
deal with our point-source problems back in the ’80s, we eliminated many
point-source discharges of wastewater, and we have less than 500 point sources
left in the state. Instead, we do a lot of wastewater reuse. We now reclaim and
reuse 2 billion gallons a day for irrigation purposes, so we don’t have to use
potable water for irrigation. Now we’re going to stormwater reuse.
What
are your current projects?
We’ve
got a lot going on. We got stagnant on our stormwater rules back in the ’90s
because there was a private property rights act passed that basically said that
if government imposed new regulations that reduced your use of property, the
government had to pay. As a result, our water management districts, which are
our chief stormwater permitting entities, quit fine-tuning the rules because of
fear of the act. We fell behind. And when the TMDL program came along, it was
obvious to me and to others—even with stormwater treatment based on the
secondary treatment concept—that every new development still increases nutrient
loading. Compared to nutrient loads from natural landscapes, even with
treatment, nitrogen loading doubles and phosphorus goes up four- or
five-fold.
In
the past six or seven years, we’ve been able to fund some research projects on
how well our current rules are doing, what could we do better, and what about
these concepts called low-impact design. Do they have viability in Florida?
These were developed in the Chesapeake and Puget Sound and those climates are a
lot different than ours.
We
get 10-inch gully washers every year. Things like rain gardens and the concept
of distributing stormwater systems throughout a subdivision—some of those things
just don’t work that well here. However, we’ve been using pervious pavement
since 1978. I happened to go to the first green roof conference in Chicago a few
years ago and got really excited about that. I came back and got some green roof
projects going that helped us learn what plants work in tropical climates,
because most green roofs have been done in temperate, not tropical, climates. We
have quantified the stormwater quantity and quality benefits of green roofs, as
well as the energy benefits.
We’ve
also been doing more research on pervious concrete. The whole idea of how do we
improve the performance of wet ponds in removing pollutants led to the issue of
stormwater reuse—because if you can reuse that water, it doesn’t discharge, so
you reduce volume and you reduce load. All of these things have come together in
the past five or six years.
And
last fall, we got permission to move forward with a new statewide stormwater
treatment rule with the performance standard that post-development nutrient load
will not exceed pre-development—and the pre-development land use condition is
natural land, not what’s on the land today, but natural
land.
We
hope to adopt the rule next May [2009] and have it go into effect next July
[2009]. But all of this is dependent upon some additional research and,
unfortunately, it seems like throughout my career, whenever I’ve had research
money and put out research project contracts, it sends the state into a drought.
So, I need a rainy season this year because we didn’t get as much data as we
needed last year for us to be able to give proper credits on some of these
low-impact BMPs.
Have
you looked at climate change-driven weather projections for your state and
started planning yet?
No,
I’ll be retired and I won’t worry about that. There’s this mid-Atlantic
oscillation and global warming. We’re not really dealing with that because if
all of the projections come true, South Florida is going underwater, and what
are you going to do then? With 20 or 30 years of rainfall changes, we might have
to adjust our treatment volumes because they’re based on long-term rainfall
records.
What
can the rest of the country learn from what you’re doing or from what you’ve
learned, and what are you particularly proud of?
Much
of my experience has been published in books. From 1992–2002, Earl Shaver—who
set up Maryland and Delaware stormwater programs—Rich Horner from Washington
State, and Joe Skupien from New Jersey formed the Watershed Management Institute
and obtained grants from EPA to share our real-world experience. Those documents
are on the UCF [University of Central Florida] Stormwater Management Academy Web
site and contain all of the key things you need to have a real program. Sadly,
even today, there are only 10 or 12 states that have a program like ours where
every development has to treat runoff to a prescribed level of pollutant
removal.
What
trends do you see coming that will have the biggest impact on stormwater?
First,
stormwater is a valuable freshwater resource that we can’t afford to throw away
anymore. Second, we’ve got to start thinking about stormwater the same way we
think of wastewater infrastructure. You can’t just let a BMP sit there for 10
years and do nothing. You’ve got to actively manage your BMPs, especially if you
are using filter or active BMPs like alum injection or ozone
treatment.
With
all of your projects, it sounds like you won’t be able to retire for a
while.
I
did retire on April 30. I walk out the door in 2013. After that, I wouldn’t mind
working with developers who want to do low-impact development. And I’ll be
spending more time at my home in the Bahamas. That’s where I’ll be blowing
bubbles underwater during StormCon this year.
Advertisement
How
could StormCon compete with your house in the
Bahamas?
Especially
since lobster season opens August 1st.
Have
you personally ever encountered an alligator in a flood control channel?
Oh,
yes. Alligators are part of Florida. Every stormwater pond in Florida has an
alligator. To tell you the truth, the bigger issue is rattlesnakes—well,
alligators are pretty big, so you can see them. But we’ve also have had the
experience of opening a culvert and finding rattlesnakes. With alligators, in
most cases, you leave them alone. In wet detention ponds, occasionally gators
will eat dogs, and we have licensed alligator trappers. That’s just part of
Florida.
July-August 2008
Florida's Rich Stormwater Legacy: Interview with the State's Stormwater Godfather, Eric Livingston, Florida Department of Environmental Resources
Although
Eric Livingston will be out of the country during StormCon, Florida’s stormwater
expertise will be represented by 18 presenters. See www.StormCon.com
for the full conference program.
What
is your background and how long have you been at the helm of the state’s
stormwater program?
I’m
a biologist and was trained in pollution control biology, especially in
estuaries. My master’s degree is in coral reef ecology. I was in Melbourne,
Florida, when I was in junior high school during the early ’60s space boom and
watched the Indian River Lagoon—which was my playground—water quality, habitat,
and fishing go to hell. That triggered something in me—and of course this was
back in the ’60s JFK era—“what can you do for your country?”—and from that
moment on, I knew I was going to dedicate my life to something related to water
quality and water resources.
I
started in DER in August of ’77, and in January of ’78 the federal Clean Water
Act Section 208 program—the nation’s first nonpoint-source management
program—began, so I got in right at the ground floor. Urbanization was the big
thing in Florida and we were also fortunate that the University of Central
Florida had already established a specialty in urban stormwater through Dr.
Marty Wanielista and other folks there, so we had data that showed that the
stuff we all played in as kids had quite a heavy pollutant
load.
The
state and our department had very enlightened leadership at that time. You could
see a growth boom was coming to Florida. So we started thinking about how to
deal with stormwater, not from a drainage perspective, but let’s get out ahead
of this and require stormwater treatment. This was revolutionary in ’78 and
’79.
Our
first rule went into place in ’79. It was a temporary rule until all of the BMP
data came in. For the next two years, we went through the official rulemaking
process to get our statewide stormwater rule in place. That was a pretty big
venture—29 official rule drafts, 100 meetings and public workshops—and, as you
can imagine, a lot of opposition. Fortunately, our leadership recognized that if
we didn’t do this now—like the auto commercial—“you can pay me now or you can
pay me later.” The rule went into effect in 1982. Since then, all new
development has had to treat stormwater to a specific level of pollutant
removal.
In
1984, I become administrator of the Stormwater/Nonpoint Management section. We
were dealing with NPS pollution from agriculture, forestry, construction, and
septic tanks, but my passion was urban stormwater. I just passed my 30th year
anniversary at DEP. Technically, I’m not in charge of stormwater anymore, I’m in
charge of TMDLs [total maximum daily loads], but I’m still DEP’s stormwater
technical expert.
Where
are you at with your TMDL program?
Since
2000, when our TMDL program really got going and we started getting some
dedicated funding that could be used for urban stormwater research, we’re back
in the mode of improving our stormwater knowledge and improving our
technology.
We,
like a lot of states, are doing a rotating basin approach. We divided our 52
basins into five groups and rotate over five-year cycles. We’re into our second
five-year cycle. We’re very unique in Florida because in 1999 the Florida
Watershed Restoration Act was passed, giving us strong legal authority and
funding. We’ve probably done more nutrient TMDLs than any state in the country
because nutrients are the really big issue in Florida. Our TMDLs are not going
on the shelf, they get implemented. We are now developing TMDL implementation
plans [basin management action plans] that are legally adopted, have the force
of law, and we actually have the authority to enforce against entities that
don’t have permits if they don’t clean up their pollution
sources.
We
are pretty unique in that we have an extremely strong institutional foundation,
very, very good science, funding—it’s not enough, but it’s more than most states
have—and we have the citizen awareness and support, which are key ingredients to
any successful program.
What
drives this level of interest?
Water
is truly special in the state of Florida; it is Florida’s lifeblood. It drives
our economy, our tourism, and our quality of life. Back in the ’70s we had some
really amazing legislators who understood [the need for] trying to prevent
problems before they happened, rather than going back and doing restoration. We
were really fortunate that our leaders in this state recognized the importance
of clean water and having a good supply of water.
There’s
a long history in the state in terms of water resource management. Flood control
drives everything, even if it’s stormwater treatment—and of course, Florida is
the champion of ditching and draining. But because of that history—especially
because of what was done in South Florida and the horror stories of what
happened to the Everglades and Florida Bay—there’s an awareness of overall
stormwater management, that it’s not just drainage, and we’re into overall
watershed management now. We are fortunate here that we have one of the world’s
most productive and purest aquifers that provide our potable water supply.
To
deal with our point-source problems back in the ’80s, we eliminated many
point-source discharges of wastewater, and we have less than 500 point sources
left in the state. Instead, we do a lot of wastewater reuse. We now reclaim and
reuse 2 billion gallons a day for irrigation purposes, so we don’t have to use
potable water for irrigation. Now we’re going to stormwater reuse.
What
are your current projects?
We’ve
got a lot going on. We got stagnant on our stormwater rules back in the ’90s
because there was a private property rights act passed that basically said that
if government imposed new regulations that reduced your use of property, the
government had to pay. As a result, our water management districts, which are
our chief stormwater permitting entities, quit fine-tuning the rules because of
fear of the act. We fell behind. And when the TMDL program came along, it was
obvious to me and to others—even with stormwater treatment based on the
secondary treatment concept—that every new development still increases nutrient
loading. Compared to nutrient loads from natural landscapes, even with
treatment, nitrogen loading doubles and phosphorus goes up four- or
five-fold.
In
the past six or seven years, we’ve been able to fund some research projects on
how well our current rules are doing, what could we do better, and what about
these concepts called low-impact design. Do they have viability in Florida?
These were developed in the Chesapeake and Puget Sound and those climates are a
lot different than ours.
We
get 10-inch gully washers every year. Things like rain gardens and the concept
of distributing stormwater systems throughout a subdivision—some of those things
just don’t work that well here. However, we’ve been using pervious pavement
since 1978. I happened to go to the first green roof conference in Chicago a few
years ago and got really excited about that. I came back and got some green roof
projects going that helped us learn what plants work in tropical climates,
because most green roofs have been done in temperate, not tropical, climates. We
have quantified the stormwater quantity and quality benefits of green roofs, as
well as the energy benefits.
We’ve
also been doing more research on pervious concrete. The whole idea of how do we
improve the performance of wet ponds in removing pollutants led to the issue of
stormwater reuse—because if you can reuse that water, it doesn’t discharge, so
you reduce volume and you reduce load. All of these things have come together in
the past five or six years.
And
last fall, we got permission to move forward with a new statewide stormwater
treatment rule with the performance standard that post-development nutrient load
will not exceed pre-development—and the pre-development land use condition is
natural land, not what’s on the land today, but natural
land.
We
hope to adopt the rule next May [2009] and have it go into effect next July
[2009]. But all of this is dependent upon some additional research and,
unfortunately, it seems like throughout my career, whenever I’ve had research
money and put out research project contracts, it sends the state into a drought.
So, I need a rainy season this year because we didn’t get as much data as we
needed last year for us to be able to give proper credits on some of these
low-impact BMPs.
Have
you looked at climate change-driven weather projections for your state and
started planning yet?
No,
I’ll be retired and I won’t worry about that. There’s this mid-Atlantic
oscillation and global warming. We’re not really dealing with that because if
all of the projections come true, South Florida is going underwater, and what
are you going to do then? With 20 or 30 years of rainfall changes, we might have
to adjust our treatment volumes because they’re based on long-term rainfall
records.
What
can the rest of the country learn from what you’re doing or from what you’ve
learned, and what are you particularly proud of?
Much
of my experience has been published in books. From 1992–2002, Earl Shaver—who
set up Maryland and Delaware stormwater programs—Rich Horner from Washington
State, and Joe Skupien from New Jersey formed the Watershed Management Institute
and obtained grants from EPA to share our real-world experience. Those documents
are on the UCF [University of Central Florida] Stormwater Management Academy Web
site and contain all of the key things you need to have a real program. Sadly,
even today, there are only 10 or 12 states that have a program like ours where
every development has to treat runoff to a prescribed level of pollutant
removal.
What
trends do you see coming that will have the biggest impact on stormwater?
First,
stormwater is a valuable freshwater resource that we can’t afford to throw away
anymore. Second, we’ve got to start thinking about stormwater the same way we
think of wastewater infrastructure. You can’t just let a BMP sit there for 10
years and do nothing. You’ve got to actively manage your BMPs, especially if you
are using filter or active BMPs like alum injection or ozone
treatment.
With
all of your projects, it sounds like you won’t be able to retire for a
while.
I
did retire on April 30. I walk out the door in 2013. After that, I wouldn’t mind
working with developers who want to do low-impact development. And I’ll be
spending more time at my home in the Bahamas. That’s where I’ll be blowing
bubbles underwater during StormCon this year.
How
could StormCon compete with your house in the
Bahamas?
Especially
since lobster season opens August 1st.
Have
you personally ever encountered an alligator in a flood control channel?
Oh,
yes. Alligators are part of Florida. Every stormwater pond in Florida has an
alligator. To tell you the truth, the bigger issue is rattlesnakes—well,
alligators are pretty big, so you can see them. But we’ve also have had the
experience of opening a culvert and finding rattlesnakes. With alligators, in
most cases, you leave them alone. In wet detention ponds, occasionally gators
will eat dogs, and we have licensed alligator trappers. That’s just part of
Florida.